Zooming in on Bedini's Radiant Spike

[sucahyo]

Thanks for the explanation .

That is like coil with core compared to coil without core right? The one without core produce higher spike.

[Sephiroth]

Using easier term, smaller coil = higher spike?

Because I am thinking of big coil with big wire = high inductance & low impedance = higher spike.

no... small coils can still have a higher inductance than large coils... the size of the coil isn't that big an influence on inductance.

big coil with big wire will more than likely have a lower inductance than a small coil with small wire.

[sucahyo]

no... small coils can still have a higher inductance than large coils... the size of the coil isn't that big an influence on inductance.

big coil with big wire will more than likely have a lower inductance than a small coil with small wire.

Ok, thanks. Just realizing my mistakes . I forgot about spike of coil with core vs without core.

[Harvey]

Hi Harvey

Have you done much work with Bedini type chargers?

Some, but others here have experimented to greater depths for sure, what with different materials, configurations and parts etc. Even your septafilar system is unique as far as I can tell. Unfortunately when I tried to visit your site it said it was closed or something, so I really don't have any idea what your particular circuit looks like other than the word descriptions.

I wish I could say I have the same 'hands on' that most of the guys have here, but the fact is that once I left my job as a technician and moved on to engineering most of my involvement has been giving the techs directions and suggestions with just an occasional troubleshooting here and there. I still do get my hands dirty though when I have something I want to try out or fiddle with, mostly just to compare reality to simulations for my own peace of mind.

To be honest, with my lack of ambition I would rather just buy Johns charger off the shelf than build one of my own . But I have been known to get out the old parts box and put some stuff together to help out when people are having a tough go at something - but generally it would need to be an unproven area of some sort or some specific task or problem they are trying to solve before I get that interested. Maybe I'm too apathetic - or just pathetic

But thanks for asking

[magnetman12003]

Harvesting Radiant Spikes

I believe I have done this but not pumped radiant spike energy back into charging a battery. What do you think? Its a real hybrid device to say the least. I have completely updated every electronic component using hi voltage/current ultra fast or stealth parts. So far no failures.

YouTube - AND ITS STILL CLIMBING

Tom Ferko

[ren]

This can really be interesting when the series capacitive reactance of the battery matches the inductive reactance of the wires and produces a resonant condition. Perhaps this is what John was referring to when he said the battery needed to resonate. If so, then perhaps that would be desirable and maybe even necessary in removing lead sulfate from the plates and reviving bad batteries.

Hi Harvey,

I really like the way you put this, even though I dont fully understand its implications. For some time now the groups have been trying to understand this part of the tuning, and trying to figure out just how much difference it would make to the running of the machine. I remember John saying once that if you matched the impedance of the machine to within 1 milli-ohm (?) of the battery you would see some really good results.

When you say SERIES capacitive reactances of the battery do you mean the collective capacitive reactances of each cell within the battery? Im just trying to get my head around that part first. The tailoring of the parallel wires in multicoil/multifilar machines I assume is an attempt to better match these parameters.

Another question. Can a battery be both capacitive and inductive, thus possibily becoming its own resonant circuit when a pulse is applied? I have heard others mention this but I have never seen anyone really flesh it out.

Thanks for your contributions.

Regards

[Harvey]

I believe I have done this but not pumped radiant spike energy back into charging a battery. What do you think? Its a real hybrid device to say the least. I have completely updated every electronic component using hi voltage/current ultra fast or stealth parts. So far no failures.

YouTube - AND ITS STILL CLIMBING

Tom Ferko

That is interesting.

Can you share a schematic of your rig?

[ren]

I believe I have done this but not pumped radiant spike energy back into charging a battery. What do you think? Its a real hybrid device to say the least. I have completely updated every electronic component using hi voltage/current ultra fast or stealth parts. So far no failures.

YouTube - AND ITS STILL CLIMBING

Tom Ferko

Hi Tom.

Im not sure what you believe you have done? All my energizers do the same thing, on big or small caps. Yesterday I was charging up 1120uF up to 350v, higher if I let it keep going.

How is your design different, besides the floating rotor? Is there another coil under the primary there?

Regards

[Harvey]

Hi Harvey,

I really like the way you put this, even though I dont fully understand its implications. For some time now the groups have been trying to understand this part of the tuning, and trying to figure out just how much difference it would make to the running of the machine. I remember John saying once that if you matched the impedance of the machine to within 1 milli-ohm (?) of the battery you would see some really good results.

When you say SERIES capacitive reactances of the battery do you mean the collective capacitive reactances of each cell within the battery? Im just trying to get my head around that part first. The tailoring of the parallel wires in multicoil/multifilar machines I assume is an attempt to better match these parameters.

Another question. Can a battery be both capacitive and inductive, thus possibily becoming its own resonant circuit when a pulse is applied? I have heard others mention this but I have never seen anyone really flesh it out.

Thanks for your contributions.

Regards

"Series"
My use of the word "Series" could taken in both ways, the total capacitance of the battery (which is a series of cells) and the fact that it is in series with the inductor in a series resonant tank configuration. (Note that the picture there is a parallel tank). Depending on how you do the transient analysis, the configuration will resemble both, a series or a parallel resonant tank.

A series resonant tank typically requires an AC waveform across it which oscillates at the resonant frequency, but this is not always needed to establish an oscillation. Simply charging one or the other up and letting them feed back and forth will work if the supply lines provide a path for the current loop (and technically that creates a LRC loop with the supply making up the R). And this requires a non-polorized capacitor capable of being charged in both directions.

A parallel tank configuration can be seen here as well, where the energy is allowed to route back and forth between the inductor and the capacitor directly through the leads and so bypassing the power supply in the current loop. But again, to be resonant, it would require a non-polarized capacitor.

In the typical Bedini setup, we find a diode between the inductor and the dead battery needing revived. This prohibits a resonant action between the inductor and capacitor and forces the high voltage to remain on the positive terminal of the battery until it is distributed within as charge. So right away we do not have a resonant configuration between the inductor and the battery in either series or parallel but when dealing with the transient spike we can see half of the resonant action when the inductive reactance and the capacitive reactance are closely tuned. When they are tuned this way, the energy from the inductor must manifest itself as charge in the battery or else it must dissipate in some way. Every battery has a limit as to how fast it will react to a charge voltage and I think John has an entire PDF explaining all the subtle things about batteries. So we cannot just slam a 5GHz Pulse into it and expect it love it. Part of the reason is the capacitive reactance, part is the inductive reactance and the rest is related to the various conductive variances. And of course, all of those variables change as the battery begins charging.

"Is it a . . ."
The interesting thing about electronic components (and probably one of the most frustrating as well) is that all components are a mixture of inductor, resistor and capacitor in varying degrees. And this does mean that they can usually oscillate at some self resonant frequency. Without delving deeply into magnetostriction or electrostriction and various shape dependent resonant actions (like crystals) we can say that all things tend to find a way to dissipate excess energy and the path for that is generally the one of least resistance.

So without going into a deep discussion about it, a battery is first a type of capacitor and second a type of inductor and then third a type of resistor when confronted with a high energy pulse. If that pulse is not fully converted to charge (both on the conductive surfaces directly and by converting the water back to sulfuric acid and the lead sulfate back to lead), then we can suppose that some of the energy is stored in a magnetic field surrounding the conductors while the current is flowing and that can result in some internal resonance when the current stops flowing.

What is more, is that a lead acid battery typically does not like to be reversed charged - it is very much like a polarized electrolytic capacitor. So the unidirectional charge characteristics also play an important part in how things oscillate in the battery.

And a final mention, is that a peak charge or even a high inductive reactance can instantiate a reflected wave back to the diode. Depending on the parameters a sustained Soliton wave can be bounced back and forth between the battery and the diode thus adding to the impetus present to revive the battery.

There is no doubt that the math and the simulations and theory can get us close to a desired result, but in the end, it is the empirical tests and hands on research that produce the truthful data. What works good for one battery may not work at all for another simply because of geometry. Getting lead sulfate off the plates of a dead battery is no easy thing, and John Bedini seems to have found a good way to do that.

Of course I have a separate theory involving positrinos that I have applied to his work but that is another story

[ren]

So we cannot just slam a 5GHz Pulse into it and expect it love it.

Lol.

Thanks Harley, there is heaps there to digest.

Just for clarity, you said this earlier in reference to the ringing.

"So, when ringing is measured on the cathode of the diode that feeds the dead battery, then it is caused by one of two sources.

1. The wire inductance
2. The battery inductance"


I assume that the wire inductance is of the coil/s arrangement. But I then wondered if it only applies to the cathode of the diode and thus only the lead or cable that connects from there to the battery? Kinda silly I know, but your last post made reference to:

"And a final mention, is that a peak charge or even a high inductive reactance can instantiate a reflected wave back to the diode. Depending on the parameters a sustained Soliton wave can be bounced back and forth between the battery and the diode thus adding to the impetus present to revive the battery."

So I wondered....

[Harvey]

Lol.

Thanks Harley, there is heaps there to digest.

Just for clarity, you said this earlier in reference to the ringing.

"So, when ringing is measured on the cathode of the diode that feeds the dead battery, then it is caused by one of two sources.

1. The wire inductance
2. The battery inductance"


I assume that the wire inductance is of the coil/s arrangement. But I then wondered if it only applies to the cathode of the diode and thus only the lead or cable that connects from there to the battery? Kinda silly I know, but your last post made reference to:

"And a final mention, is that a peak charge or even a high inductive reactance can instantiate a reflected wave back to the diode. Depending on the parameters a sustained Soliton wave can be bounced back and forth between the battery and the diode thus adding to the impetus present to revive the battery."

So I wondered....

I think you have a good grasp of it.

The Coil itself can't reuse the energy that has passed through the diode so ringing is essentially damped on the Anode side of the Diode. Ringing is caused by the BEMF energy being recycled numerous times in an inductor in an AC fashion. When the BEMF is trapped on the cathode side of the diode, it is unable to flow back through the coil and is therefore unable to generate a reversed BEMF in the coil.

So, if ringing is observed on the cathode, then it is indicative of an existent inductance after the cathode. (unless we are getting really deep in the details and actually measuring the inductance of the diode leads themselves - which I have seen some techs do . . . really low V and fast time base . . . but even then, it technically after the cathode PN junction).

I have seen as high as 90V bumps on a 24V supply battery positive lead ~72" long simply because of the wire inductance and current being drawn through it and it rings several cycles before being completely dissipated back to the battery and in the wire resistance. But the frequency of the ringing is relatively fast and the energy contained in it is reasonably low.

Inductance of a Straight Wire: A Calculator

[Sephiroth]

Perhaps we're saying the same thing but in different ways...

This is how I see it.

We know that the field will collapse faster (thus generate a higher voltage) the higher the impedance of the load.

Because of the battery's slight inductance, when the field initially begins to collapse it sees the load (our battery) as a very high impedance and so the field collapses faster and generates what we see as the leading edge spike which will drop in voltage as the current is allowed to flow. So before the current is allowed to flow, charge is building up across the anode and cathode of the battery, alot like charging a very low farad capacitor.

If the energy from this charge can't be absorbed by the battery during this time, then it's reflected (discharges) back to the diode, then back to the battery, then back to the diode and so on, loosing energy the whole time through the circuit's resistance.

But the ringing isn't directly due to the battery's inductance. The battery's inductance is what causes the overshoot, the spike. The ringing is a reaction to the spike from a combination of the parasitic capacitance across the battery and circuit, as well as the parasitic inductance of the circuit. A resonant LC circuit basically.

So to get the highest overshoot, but minimal ringing, I think we need to keep the parasitic capacitance, and inductance, of the wires minimal.

[Harvey]

Perhaps we're saying the same thing but in different ways...

This is how I see it.

We know that the field will collapse faster (thus generate a higher voltage) the higher the impedance of the load.

Because of the battery's slight inductance, when the field initially begins to collapse it sees the load (our battery) as a very high impedance and so the field collapses faster and generates what we see as the leading edge spike which will drop in voltage as the current is allowed to flow. So before the current is allowed to flow, charge is building up across the anode and cathode of the battery, alot like charging a very low farad capacitor.

If the energy from this charge can't be absorbed by the battery during this time, then it's reflected (discharges) back to the diode, then back to the battery, then back to the diode and so on, loosing energy the whole time through the circuit's resistance.

But the ringing isn't directly due to the battery's inductance. The battery's inductance is what causes the overshoot, the spike. The ringing is a reaction to the spike from a combination of the parasitic capacitance across the battery and circuit, as well as the parasitic inductance of the circuit. A resonant LC circuit basically.

So to get the highest overshoot, but minimal ringing, I think we need to keep the parasitic capacitance, and inductance, of the wires minimal.

How would placing a 1000V Zener Diode between the Cathode of the diode and the battery (both cathodes connected together) allow the spike to reach over 1000V while having a low impedance path to the battery?

Would placing an IRFPG50 drain on the cathode and source on the dead battery positive function in that way? How does the repetitive avalanche characteristic of that part allow it to function in that way? How many Joules of energy can be discharged to the battery during each avalanche cycle? How much time is needed for recovery and preparation for another? Is there a better device with the same characteristics that has a lower internal resistance? Is the on resistance of that device the same as the avalanche resistance?

Could a MOV be used instead of a Zener? What are the advantages of each?

Just throwing around some ideas

[Sephiroth]

How would placing a 1000V Zener Diode between the Cathode of the diode and the battery (both cathodes connected together) allow the spike to reach over 1000V while having a low impedance path to the battery?

Would placing an IRFPG50 drain on the cathode and source on the dead battery positive function in that way? How does the repetitive avalanche characteristic of that part allow it to function in that way? How many Joules of energy can be discharged to the battery during each avalanche cycle? How much time is needed for recovery and preparation for another? Is there a better device with the same characteristics that has a lower internal resistance? Is the on resistance of that device the same as the avalanche resistance?

Could a MOV be used instead of a Zener? What are the advantages of each?

Just throwing around some ideas

K.I.S.S

[ren]

How would placing a 1000V Zener Diode between the Cathode of the diode and the battery (both cathodes connected together) allow the spike to reach over 1000V while having a low impedance path to the battery?

Would placing an IRFPG50 drain on the cathode and source on the dead battery positive function in that way? How does the repetitive avalanche characteristic of that part allow it to function in that way? How many Joules of energy can be discharged to the battery during each avalanche cycle? How much time is needed for recovery and preparation for another? Is there a better device with the same characteristics that has a lower internal resistance? Is the on resistance of that device the same as the avalanche resistance?

Could a MOV be used instead of a Zener? What are the advantages of each?

Just throwing around some ideas

I remember reading somewhere that John said you could improve the system by using a much lower DCR diode. For the life of me I havent been able to figure out what DCR is, or how it applies to the diode.

Regards