The secret to extracting mechanical energy out of SSG

[elias]

New observations

Hi friends,

I came up with a new design for the small torque rotor, as I did some experiments today. See the attached photos. The configuration that all north poles were pointing outward is not so efficient in utilizing the repulsive force of the magnets, although it works. This new design will increase the output torque much more, as it uses the repulsive force much more.

As it is evident from the photos attached the repulsive force of the magnet is more than two times the tangential force of it in the configuration I have used the magnets, (about 45 degrees in relation to each other). As we load the second rotor, The repulsive force of the magnets will come into play which would add to the overall torque. This new design, will work in attraction mode, rotating in the clockwise direction and repulsion mode on the anti-clockwise direction. I have bought bearings and I'll keep you informed as I build it!

Regards,
Elias

[Jetijs]

Elias, yesterday as I went to sleep, I thought about this and also came to the same conclusion, that in the arrangement you showed, it should be more efficient to utilize this push/pull effect. Also this may eliminate the need for very small rotor. This might work with the setup I already have, will try this out.

[elias]

Rotor Size

Elias, yesterday as I went to sleep, I thought about this and also came to the same conclusion, that in the arrangement you showed, it should be more efficient to utilize this push/pull effect. Also this may eliminate the need for very small rotor. This might work with the setup I already have, will try this out.

Jetijs,

Very interesting that this came to your mind too. Small Rotor is still a requirement in my opinion, but with your rotor, some excess torque may result as this configuration utilizes 2 to 3 times more of the repulsion force. The KEY is the angle between your repulsing magnets. As the magnets push each other, the angle should change between them to produce this effect. If the rotors are large, the angle would hardly go over zero and the magnets are tangent along their repulsion.

Remember that the relation F_repulsion > F_in . (1-cos(angle))/sin(angle) must hold for achieving F_out > F_in, if your angle remains zero at the course of repulsion, then the right side of the relation will approach infinity and the relation would never hold, so the angle between them must be more than zero, I would consider angle=45, and to do this you need a rotor small enough. Sorry, but I really want you to see some good results, so I am throwing out here what I can think of! Your angle seems about 20 degrees so what would be the result of your arrangement?

Here it is:
F_in: Your input force from the SSG tangent to the rotor of it
F_out: You output force on you smaller rotor tangent to it
F_repulsion: The repulsive force of your magnets
angle: the maximum angle between your repulsing magnets.

F_out = F_in cos(angle) + F_repulsion . sin(angle)

F_repulsion is about two to three times F_tangential So F_repulsion = 2 . F_tangential. if you load your rotor more than F_tangential on the rotor. Your rotor would stop! F_tangential is about 200 grams or 2 N with my tests, depending on the size and power of your magnets. As you magnets are big, I would consider it being about F_tangential = 5 Newtons, so F_ repulsion = 10 Newtons. Hence:

F_out = F_in cos(20) + 10 . sin(20).

The term F_in cos(20) is the drag force on your rotor, or the component of the output used from the input. So loading your rotor would only affect this term. But the second term is what, we have got for free, and this motor certainly is over unity, but if you want your net output to be more than F_in, not just F_in . cos(20) You must have F_out > F_in which yields to the relation F_repulsion > F_in . 1-cos(angle))/sin(angle).
Accordingly we would have: 10 > F_in.(1-cos(20))/sin(20), thus 10 > 2.F_in and F_in < 5 Newtons. But this does not matter as your smaller rotor would be in over-unity operation always, because it would drag your main rotor less, when generating less.

But as a final word, the gain we would have is F_repulsion.sin(angle), which is about 0.3*F_repulsion, so you utilize only 30 percent of the repulsion force in this configuration, also F_repulsion is smaller in this configuration, because the magnets are not facing each other so much, so although I am sure this device is overunity, but it may or may not show something significant. Now if you consider angle=45, we would get a gain of 0.7 . F_repulsion, with a greater repulsive force, which I estimate this having a gain of three times your configuration, besides having less drag on the main rotor.

Eager to see your tests with this new arrangement. Good luck.

Regards,
Elias

[Peter Lindemann]

Careful Observations

Elias, yesterday as I went to sleep, I thought about this and also came to the same conclusion, that in the arrangement you showed, it should be more efficient to utilize this push/pull effect. Also this may eliminate the need for very small rotor. This might work with the setup I already have, will try this out.

Jetijs,

Elias may have come up with something here. But take a very close look at his set-up.

First, the magnets on the large wheel are significantly larger than the magnets on the small wheel. The field of these larger magnets dominate the space the smaller magnets are moving through.

Second, when the major "repulsion" position occurs for the smaller magnet, it's "equal and opposite" reaction torque is pushing RADIALLY against the SHAFT of the larger wheel. If this GEOMETRY is carefully exploited, it may be possible to produce an extra torque in the small wheel that does NOT act against the TANGENTIAL FORCE of the larger wheel.

I also agree that the magnets mounted sideways in the smaller wheel may accentuate this effect. But they won't all by themselves. It takes a proportional spacing to align the main repulsion effect of the small wheel when the magnet on the larger wheel is off to the side of the axis of the small wheel.

With the magnets sideways, and the small wheel diameter equal to the distance between two of the large magnets on the larger wheel, it may be possible to attract to one large magnet and repel from the next large magnet while a third small magnet passes between them. This suggests that only four magnets on the small wheel is optimum.

If something like this works, it may be related to the "secret" of the Bowman PMM.

Elias, WAY TO GO!

Peter

[elias]

Any similarity?

Hi

Thanks Peter for the useful insights.

Does anybody see any similarity between our design, and the following?


Pretty interesting, that I had seen that picture lately, but I didn't remember, until I came up with a design which closely resembles Bedini's drawing.

The rotor is practically the same, but instead of a ramp, we are using our moving monopole magnets kick the magnets. I hope that we'll get promising results.

Elias

[Jetijs]

Elias,
I just tried the second magnet setup. Results are the same if not worse, because It was very difficult to get those wheels to couple and when they did, the torque was very low, just as in my previous setup. I even tried to press the magnets together so that two N poles are facing each other, just like in so called superpole setup, with no good results, then I tried the compressed S superpole configuration, also nothing. At last I tried NSNS superpole configuration - also nothing. I just thought that it is easier to try all these different configs out than to calculate anything. So I think that it is obvious, that the problem in the too big diameter of the small rotor. I also agree to Peter, that the major magnetic force should be on the bigger wheel and not like in my setup, where the smaller wheel has the double stacked magnets. I just can't try out the other way, because I do not have enough magnets. Next I would like to try out a four magnet smaller wheel with a diameter as small as needed to get the space between magnets exactly like the space between magnets on the larger wheel, that would be about 8cm diameter.
Thank you,
Jetijs

[Peter Lindemann]

Working Model

Hi

Thanks Peter for the useful insights.

Does anybody see any similarity between our design, and the following?


Pretty interesting, that I had seen that picture lately, but I didn't remember, until I came up with a design which closely resembles Bedini's drawing.

The rotor is practically the same, but instead of a ramp, we are using our moving monopole magnets kick the magnets. I hope that we'll get promising results.

Elias

Elias,

Yes, the similarity is there, but this image does not show the correct geometry for your system. John Bedini told me that only one model of the magnet motor in this image was ever built. It took Ron Cole WEEKS of fussing with it to get it to just limp along very slowly. John never thought it was worth pursuing. He just reported that it worked.

Correct geometry and careful spacing is the key to these ideas. Pushing RADIALLY away from the big wheel is the way to get a positive torque to show up in the small wheel that is not countered by a reverse torque on the big wheel. Any magnet arrangement that allows this to happen should work.

Peter

[elias]

My Rotor

Thank you Peter to remind me of this fact, because, I thought it is worth a try building it.

Well,
As I promised, I built my rotor, so here is the picture of it. I tested it with my SSG and it turns wonderfully, the next step would be mounting the bearings and the shaft.

Jetijs,
I think that your motor configuration has two features which doesn't enable you to produce good torque: 1- The spacing between your magnets may be too much for this. 2- The smaller rotor you are using is too big. Because as you see my magnets are exactly 1.5 widths a part, and this makes it easier for me to couple a smaller rotor to it. The width of my magnets is 24mm and 36mm spacing for them results in 6cm a whole magnet pass length. With four magnets on my smaller rotor, I require 6x4 = 24cm perimeter to traverse them in sync. So this makes possible for me to make a rotor of about 7.5cm diameter.

Elias

[ren]

Good work Elias! Keep it up. I am interested in this coupling style, but I must ask how you intend to use this mechanical power from the 2nd wheel? Would this smaller wheel then turn a magneto/alternator?

[elias]

Experimenting

Good work Elias! Keep it up. I am interested in this coupling style, but I must ask how you intend to use this mechanical power from the 2nd wheel? Would this smaller wheel then turn a magneto/alternator?

Ren,

I am more in the process of experimenting, and if I succeed in this, I would scale this up!, Maybe I'll build another big and small wheel with Nd magnets for far greater output. Hooking a generator will be a way of measuring the mechanical power. I don't have a dynamo, maybe I'll build one around my SSG, who knows!

BTW, I have tested the rotor by holding it with my finger (instead of a shaft) and, have noticed that the magnets push and pull very strongly. I think that the output on this would be around 2 or 3 times the SSG Rotor depending on the magnet power. Let's see.

Elias

[elias]

Hi,

I set it up and, did some measurements to see if my new rotor does more work or not. To measure the work, I used a piece of metal and loaded down the motor with it to a constant RPM, while the thermometer was reading the temperature. I started at 26 Degree Celsius and measured the temperature rise for each shaft after 30 seconds.

My original big SSG rotor could take the temperature up to 34 Degree Celsius, but my smaller rotor, was able to rise it up to 39 Degrees Celsius. I am pretty sure now this little rotor does more work.

I will share some photos after completing my setup.

Elias

[adam ant]

do you think the shape of the magnets could help? if the magnets were round, or cylindrical (with round surface facing out) you could put more in the system.(closer)


OR!! what about using a stereo speaker Ring magnet, with no break in magnetism.

[elias]

do you think the shape of the magnets could help? if the magnets were round, or cylindrical (with round surface facing out) you could put more in the system.(closer)


OR!! what about using a stereo speaker Ring magnet, with no break in magnetism.

Bryan,

I really don't know, but if you have an idea I'd like to hear. My objective is to utilize the magnet repulsive force for doing more work, but I have to think about other possible designs, This design definitely works and gives out at least two times more energy, I suppose.

Elias

[elias]

My completed rotor

Hi

Here is my complete rotor, for those who want to replicate.

Elias

[Jetijs]

Good job, elias
The results look good. Thank you for sharing!