Understanding magnets - with EFD and the SPM lens

[Raui]

Sucahyo I coud give you many examples; Whimshurt machine, "Kelvin's thunderstorm", Van-DeGraaff Generator or basically any electrostatic generator. As for storage well a leyden jar sounds pretty suffice to me. Think electrostatics and you will have your answers

[Aaron]

current and voltage

Rectified,

What I am saying is very consistent. I believe the confusion is that are trying to fit what I'm saying into your context, which isn't compatible and this is why you think you're seeing something different.

Voltage is an indication of the PRESSURE of the Heaviside flow over the wire which has its positive component moving from the positive terminal over the wire towards the negative terminal....this PRESSURE of the Heaviside flow is called VOLTAGE. This is NOT speed of the voltage and it is NOT electron current. The negative component of the Heaviside flow over the wire moves from the negative terminal to the positive terminal over the wire....in a normal closed loop, the positive and negative are fairly equal.

This Heaviside flow moving over the surface of the wire is moving at a little under light speed in a closed loop.

A very, very, very small part of the positive Heaviside flow is attracted to the negative charge of the electrons of the copper atoms that make up the wire. As the small part of the Heaviside flow is attracted towards the electrons...the most easily liberated electrons are in the third electron field of the copper atom. That electron is attracted towards the positive terminal since it is attracted to the high potential or opposite charge. The electron jumps orbit and moves to the atom next to it and moves into third electron field of the atom next to it, which was depleted of an electron by the attraction of the positive Heaviside flow and that goes on and on at a very slow migration speed.

These electrons do this at the speed of a few inches per hour slowly migrating in the direction of the positive terminal.

These electrons moving are what AMPERAGE is and has nothing to do with the speed of the voltage...the speed of the Heaviside flow is fairly fixed in a closed loop (little under speed of light)....this causes the electrons to move at a few inches per hour as described above.

I fail to see what is difficult to understand about this and why anyone would or could confuse the issue.

In a closed loop where the positive and negative component of the Heaviside flow are pretty much inversely equal...Ohm's Law is accurate as far as the math but just because that is so - reading into this and thinking that amperage and speed of voltage is the same thing or connected is a misunderstanding of what is happening on an electric circuit in not only my opinion but in fairly well established published science.

A battery charged up just sitting on the table has a voltage potential whether or not you have a meter on it to read the voltage by making the voltage moving over a known resistance....there is a potential sitting at the terminal even if never connecting anything to it and it is there even if you don't make it move over a known resistance...and even amp meters don't even measure current and this is a fact.

The amp meter only reads the Heaviside flow period. The amp meter reads nothing but voltage or the pressure of the Heaviside flow over different resistances and based on the pressure of the flow combined with different resistances, it will tell you what the current is "supposed to be" based on the math but no amp meter directly measure current, period. The meters measure voltage that is it.

Current can flow over a circuit, through an inductor to charge it with a magnetic field at ZERO or NEGATIVE voltage. If you know what potential and energy are, then you know how to manipulate the circuit so a capacitor for example discharges into a coil at negative resistance - the coil will offer a negative impedance and a negative induction violating ohm's law, faraday's law of induction, lenz's law...and the first and second law of thermodynamics...and it isn't necessarily electron current that is charging the coil it is magnetic current...and the loop for the most part is still closed...but the potential is sent in impulses so that the equilibrium or symmetry of the pos and neg is no longer there...it is an asymetrical situation on a closed loop now where the negative part of the Heaviside flow is inversly greater than the positive potential.

Rectified, it is clear you understand the conventional understanding of ohm's law and I agree it applies in a conventional circuit with a closed loop but that is a separate issue from understanding what the voltage is and where it comes from.

The amperage has nothing to do with the "speed" of voltage as you can have higher or lower amperage in a circuit at the same voltage and the voltage is going to be the same speed. Inversely, you can have a certain amperage with low or high voltage...and again...the speed of the voltage is the same in both cases.

And now you say

post # 24

Just on one point here, in normal terms...voltage isn't current...voltage is voltage and electron current is the current or amperage...the electron current, which is rated in amperage is moving at a few inches per hour while the voltage is moving at a little under light speed.

Everything I told you is accurate.

For one, if you are trying to point out to me that I would be shocked to learn how slow current is compared to the speed of light, what is apparent is that you have not understood anything I wrote, respectfully.

[sucahyo]

Sucahyo I coud give you many examples; Whimshurt machine, "Kelvin's thunderstorm", Van-DeGraaff Generator or basically any electrostatic generator. As for storage well a leyden jar sounds pretty suffice to me. Think electrostatics and you will have your answers

Aren't that all generator of high voltage with very little current? I ask for the opposite, generator of very high current with very little voltage.


About weird phenomenon, I wonder how we can measure it? Maybe you mention a current without voltage because you can't measure the voltage even if it exist?

Or you call potential different of aether and physical differently from voltage (plus is in aether, minus is in physical)? something like aether potential?

@Aaron, do Bedini scalar device has electron move slower than light too? Or is that because it is different from Erick Dollard experiment?

[Raui]

Ahh sorry suchayo I misread your post. None the less I can answer your question still partially. When you generate electricity with a generator the current is based off your magnet and the amount of turns in your coil. The speed of the rotation of the magnet defines the voltage. Therefore a high current low voltage situation would be a massive magnetic field rotating in a coil of many turns at a slow rate.

A perfect all current/no voltage would be a magnet. Our meters can only read when both electrical (potentials) and magnetism (current) are present in a coil of wire. By themselves they are only potentials and nothing that our electromagnetic meters can read.

Raui

[Aaron]

current and voltage

The Faraday type motors, N machine - are high current and low voltage but the reference I made to a coil with current literally has no positive voltage involved.

[Rectified]

Old terminology should be left alone, knew ones created

Aron reply
What I am saying is very consistent.

R reply
Did you or did you not say Post #22

The amperage has nothing to do with the "speed" of voltage as you can have higher or lower amperage in a circuit at the same voltage and the voltage is going to be the same speed. Inversely, you can have a certain amperage with low or high voltage...and again...the speed of the voltage is the same in both cases.

post # 24

Just on one point here, in normal terms...voltage isn't current...voltage is voltage and electron current is the current or amperage...the electron current, which is rated in amperage is moving at a few inches per hour while the voltage is moving at a little under light speed.

Everything I told you is accurate.

I believe the confusion is that are trying to fit what I'm saying into your context, which isn't compatible and this is why you think you're seeing something different.

R reply

According to Si system of units Electron potential. The terminal voltage of a cell that is not discharging is called its electromotive force (emf), and has the same unit as electrical potential. The electric potential is defined as the amount of "work" needed to move an electric charge from one point to the other. This shows the amount of work that is flowing from the first point to the second and how much it can perform. Current is the rate of electric charge motion through a conductor.
To be able to make meaningful statements about these quantities in circuits, we need to be able to describe their quantities in the same way that we might quantify mass, temperature, volume, length, or any other kind of physical quantity, therefore Voltage without Current or Current without Voltage is meaningless one can not exist without the other. I never said they were the same. They are two units of measurement. You said you could have one without the other, not me. My reply is based well-established Ohms law context. Your statements contradict your self.-period.



A :

Voltage is an indication of the PRESSURE of the Heaviside flow over the wire which has its positive component moving from the positive terminal over the wire towards the negative terminal....this PRESSURE of the Heaviside flow is called VOLTAGE. This is NOT speed of the voltage and it is NOT electron current. The negative component of the Heaviside flow over the wire moves from the negative terminal to the positive terminal over the wire....in a normal closed loop, the positive and negative are fairly equal.

This Heaviside flow moving over the surface of the wire is moving at a little under light speed in a closed loop.

A very, very, very small part of the positive Heaviside flow is attracted to the negative charge of the electrons of the copper atoms that make up the wire. As the small part of the Heaviside flow is attracted towards the electrons...the most easily liberated electrons are in the third electron field of the copper atom. That electron is attracted towards the positive terminal since it is attracted to the high potential or opposite charge. The electron jumps orbit and moves to the atom next to it and moves into third electron field of the atom next to it, which was depleted of an electron by the attraction of the positive Heaviside flow and that goes on and on at a very slow migration speed.

These electrons do this at the speed of a few inches per hour slowly migrating in the direction of the positive terminal.

These electrons moving are what AMPERAGE is and has nothing to do with the speed of the voltage...the speed of the Heaviside flow is fairly fixed in a closed loop (little under speed of light)....this causes the electrons to move at a few inches per hour as described above.

I fail to see what is difficult to understand about this and why anyone would or could confuse the issue.

In a closed loop where the positive and negative component of the Heaviside flow are pretty much inversely equal...Ohm's Law is accurate as far as the math but just because that is so - reading into this and thinking that amperage and speed of voltage is the same thing or connected is a misunderstanding of what is happening on an electric circuit in not only my opinion but in fairly well established published science.






A:
A battery charged up just sitting on the table has a voltage potential whether or not you have a meter on it to read the voltage by making the voltage moving over a known resistance....there is a potential sitting at the terminal even if never connecting anything to it and it is there even if you don't make it move over a known resistance...and even amp meters don't even measure current and this is a fact.

The amp meter only reads the Heaviside flow period. The amp meter reads nothing but voltage or the pressure of the Heaviside flow over different resistances and based on the pressure of the flow combined with different resistances, it will tell you what the current is "supposed to be" based on the math but no amp meter directly measure current, period. The meters measure voltage that is it.

R:
Once again I will respectfully disagree, and not all Amp meters work by that method.

A:
Current can flow over a circuit, through an inductor to charge it with a magnetic field at ZERO or NEGATIVE voltage. If you know what potential and energy are, then you know how to manipulate the circuit so a capacitor for example discharges into a coil at negative resistance - the coil will offer a negative impedance and a negative induction violating ohm's law, faraday's law of induction, lenz's law...and the first and second law of thermodynamics...and it isn't necessarily electron current that is charging the coil it is magnetic current...and the loop for the most part is still closed...but the potential is sent in impulses so that the equilibrium or symmetry of the pos and neg is no longer there...it is an asymetrical situation on a closed loop now where the negative part of the Heaviside flow is inversly greater than the positive potential.

Rectified, it is clear you understand the conventional understanding of ohm's law and I agree it applies in a conventional circuit with a closed loop but that is a separate issue from understanding what the voltage is and where it comes from.

[Raui]

I agree with you Rectified that all of us investigating shouldn't re-write the laws however we are not dealing with conventional circuits so perhaps conventional terminology are in need of a new definition when dealing with what we are dealing with?

For one I feel and I am sure many would agree that we are dealing with a more electrostatic phenomenon. Tesla has even hinted this in his writings "Starting with the idea of producing electro-magnetic waves, they turned their attention, perhaps, too much to the study of electro-magnetic effects, and neglected the study of electrostatic phenomena.".

So straight away Ohm's law isn't of any help. Except for transient phenomenon but this is only a very quick transient. At this moment, for instance when a Bonetti machine fires, the current maybe measured as I = q/t (where q is charge and t is time). This is only at very specific times that even ohm's law, one of the most used laws in electromagnetics, is useless. Yes things like potential should have the same definition however when dealing with the same thing all day everyday and never creeping out into the woods we will never find a contradiction so therefore we have to try new things, perhaps with a better investigation into the electrostatic phenomenon we will find anomalies in our current terminology.

Btw, I'm not trying to attack you Rectified. You seem like an intelligent man with alot of experience with electromagnetic circuits.

Raui

[Aaron]

voltage and current existing independently

Rectified,

I don't contradict myself, I'm very clear in what I'm communicating. You're taking what I say out of context.

At Energetic Forum all ideas and opinions are welcome so feel free to start any thread you want to explain about your view of the fundamentals as it will help anyone that vibes with your explanation.

Voltage and current can exist independently and just because the model or knowledge doesn't permit it doesn't mean they can't exist independently. It is easy to create a current to make a magnetic field in a coil, allows the current to flow and maintain in the coil while producing a magnetic field and there is zero voltage - no potential difference in any part of the circuit...whether or not you believe it is one thing but the reality is that it can be done, is being done, I can do it and so can anyone else for the cost of a few large pizzas for good scale or for much less.

If we allow ourselves to be open-minded enough, we might just see these things regardless of what the math says. What you are quoting appears to apply to only closed systems that are in thermodynamic equilibrium...they wind down until there is nothing left and there is no input from environmental sources. The whole point to these other technologies that we're dealing with is that they are open systems that can produce over 1.0 COP because there is free environmental input that takes the system out of equilibrium and therefore the math, theories and laws that govern the equilibrium systems no longer have any jurisdiction. This is a fact.

Keep in mind that results are the bottom line and if results counter the theory or law, the theory or law is wrong, period. I'm saying they're wrong if there are any claims that the laws apply across the board to everything no matter what...otherwise, they are conditions that only apply to closed loop equilibrium systems.

[sucahyo]

@Raui, the high current low voltage that I imagine is it would not generate spark on any size of spark gap but will pulverize the conductor in a flash. Since a very high voltage low current spark won't heating up the air even if the spark gap is big.

Do the magnetic flux really is the same as electric current that you seems to refer both as same?

I can't find info of what magnetic current is in wiki, so this is not the way we supposed to call it:

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Magnetic potential - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The magnetic potential provides a mathematical way to define a magnetic field in classical electromagnetism. It is analogous to the electric potential which defines the electric field in electrostatics. Like the electric potential, it is not directly observable - only the field it describes may be measured. There are two ways to define this potential - as a scalar and as a vector potential. (Note, however, that the magnetic vector potential is used much more often than the magnetic scalar potential.)

@Aaron, how can we call a difference in voltage positive or negative? it would always be positive shouldn't it? since a negative would only indicate a direction, thus a vector?

Electric potential - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At a point in space, the electric potential is the potential energy per unit of charge that is associated with a static (time-invariant) electric field. It is a scalar quantity, typically measured in volts. The difference in electrical potential between two points is known as voltage.

There is also a generalized electric scalar potential that is used in electrodynamics when time-varying electromagnetic fields are present. This generalized electric potential cannot be simply interpreted as potential energy per unit charge, however.

Scalar should only be an absolute value of a calculation isn't it? If you add negative sign to the voltage measurement, it isn't voltage anymore.

And magnet have potential too isn't it, without it it wouldn't have work? So when the leedskalnin steel is detached there is magnetic potential which being converted to electric potential?

Magnetic field will create magnetic potential, but I am not sure how magnetic current usually called.

Potential without current or current without potential can not do work, since work is a multiplication of both. Lamp can not be lighted up without work. iron can not be attached to magnet without work. even if the source of work is not understood yet, to do work there must be potential and some amount of potential leak.

Maybe the potential is not coming from the coil or magnet or battery it self, but coming from environment. Maybe the environment is not temperature, wind or waterfall, something unimaginable but it would still need potential and it's leaking to do work.

Wether one has to rely to another, I stil learning.

[sucahyo]

magnetic current is not the same as electric current

EDWARD'S THEORY OF MAGNETIC CURRENT

Now I will tell you what magnetic current is. Magnetic current is the same as electric current is a wrong expression. Really it is not one current, they are two currents, one current is composed of North Pole individual magnets in concentrated streams and the other is composed of South Pole individual magnets in concentrated streams, and they are running one stream against the other stream in whirling, screw-like fashion, and with high speed. One current alone if it be North Pole magnet current or South Pole magnet
current it cannot run alone. To run one current will have to run against the other.

[Rectified]

[Raui]

Rectified,
For sure, I will I'll be contributing where I can. At the moment I am in the process of building a grey tube and replicate Tesla's stout copper bars experiment (cleverly coined the 'Hairpin circuit' by Karl_Palsness of this Forum). It is harder for me to get materials required for things like this (due to income and accessibility) so my replications take time. When they are built they are a great learning tool for me though.

Sucahyo,
I learn new things everyday. Most of my learning has to be done from research of previously replicated material and try and put the puzzle together by putting together similarities. Thank you for that link. I have a new view on things. Much appreciated.

[Aaron]

negative differences

@Aaron, how can we call a difference in voltage positive or negative? it would always be positive shouldn't it? since a negative would only indicate a direction, thus a vector?

It goes beyond this - there can be two negatives on a circuit connected by a common positive and the difference between the negatives is a negative potential difference. They're not simply potential differences in relation to each other, the energy is different in the way it behaves and it can be captured and it is literally negative.

[Aaron]

magnetic current isn't electron current

EDWARD'S THEORY OF MAGNETIC CURRENT

I didn't look at your link but I saw your subject line. That is correct that the magnetic current is not the same as electron current. However, the magnetic current will still measure amperage on a meter and will perform work as evidenced by what the magnetic field is doing and there is no voltage, no ohm's law, no lenz's law and no faraday's law of induction.

[sucahyo]

It goes beyond this - there can be two negatives on a circuit connected by a common positive and the difference between the negatives is a negative potential difference. They're not simply potential differences in relation to each other, the energy is different in the way it behaves and it can be captured and it is literally negative.

I see. We have different opinion then. I still think the difference between negative to negative is still a positive value. Even if the second negative is in different dimension.

Or you only mention the negative voltage to spesific kind of non ordinary voltage?

However, the magnetic current will still measure amperage on a meter and will perform work as evidenced by what the magnetic field is doing and there is no voltage, no ohm's law, no lenz's law and no faraday's law of induction.

I have different opinion. Work is not the same as current, even if work increase the same way as the current increase. To do work we need potential too. And I think you say no voltage because you can't measure it. The same way as Dr Robert Adam complain about device measurement using standard equipment where he insist of the use of only calorimeter to measure his.